Spiritual Warfare with Dr. Joel Muddamalle

You guys know Joel Muddamalle. He's a great theologian. He has also benefited our audience many times by the podcast, by helping me with research for my books, as well as the IF Gathering. We're talking about the enemy, we're talking about spiritual warfare. Below is our edited conversation-

Jennie- I know that this is a topic you just broached with a bunch of college students at Breakaway. Tell everybody a little bit about that.

Joel- A good friend, Brian McCormack, invited me to come. They're working exegetically through the Gospel of Luke. Brian and I have known each other for a while. He's the Executive Director of Breakaway now. My doctoral advisor, Dr. Michael Heiser, who passed away just earlier this year, his specialty is on the supernatural realm – Old Testament, New Testament, understanding spiritual warfare what's going on with these cosmic supernatural beings, and how do we as humans (people who love Jesus, want to follow Jesus, and want to do the things that Jesus has equipped us, vocationally and missionally, to do). How do we make sense of the supernatural realm? And so Brian was like, "Hey, would you come speak to a couple thousand college students at Texas A&M at the Reed Arena and work through the text?" I was like, "Absolutely."

I put up some lyrics, and there's this really famous song that's out, and at the end of it I just hummed the little lyric. I go- "Mmmm, she's a..." And 3,500, almost 4,000 students go, "She's a devil!" And then there was silence and it was this awakening moment to really recognize we're singing songs that are on the radio, that are on our playlists, that are informing our theology. It's actually informing how we think and we're being led, I would argue, cunningly and deceptively. We're being led to believe that things like the devil or demons or supernatural beings, these things are good.

Jennie Allen- They're seeing darkness in ways that I don't think we saw in our college years, and they see the need for understanding it in different ways. So talk a little bit about this conversation; because it can be awkward, it can be uncomfortable for people to have.

Joel- I think it's important that we always go back to Genesis. We go back to the first things to help frame our mind around this discussion. And the question is- Is the supernatural realm an afterthought? Is it not something that is important? Is it something that is secondary or tertiary? I just think it's so important that we just recall and recollect that the tension of Eden is a supernatural conflict. Eden is the temple home of God. It is the place where supernatural beings and God's human image bearers live and reside. And the serpent, the Hebrew word for serpent is nachash. It can actually mean three things- It can mean an actual serpent. That word can translate to an actual serpent. It also is a reference to the guardian cherubim that we see in Isaiah 6 that are in the throne-room of God and that are placed, actually, the two guardian cherubim that are placed at Eden after they get out. It is also a word that's used to describe a fiery presence. It's like burning, fiery imagery.

What's super fascinating is that, I would argue, along with my doctoral advisor Dr. Michael Heiser, that in Genesis, this nachash is doing all three things-

It is a supernatural being that is in direct conflict with God and his people, and the way in which this enemy presents the conflict is deceptively by questioning the goodness of God. It's by questioning the validity of the truth of who God is. And what's wildly fascinating to me about this whole narrative is that, in Genesis 3, it says that God comes to Eden and he walks in Eden.

This was kind of a routine thing for God to do with Adam and Eve. The Hebrew word for walking, it does not have a destination in mind.

So when God comes to Eden and he walks with Adam and Eve, he's going on a leisurely walk.

My wife loves going on walks. She loves walks. But I think this is so important because what it lets us know is that it was routine for God to go on leisurely walks with Adam and Eve. Why is this so important? Why am I camping out on this?

Because all Adam and Eve had to do when the serpent suggested this deceptive way of thinking wrongly about God is be like, "Hey, let's just wait. Let's wait and let's have this conversation with God because he's going to show up. We normally talk with God." And I do think that this is the overarching nature of spiritual warfare.

It is a compromise of truth. It's not saying that it is like we're going to totally reject truth completely, but it's a corruption of truth. So that instead of 100% truth, we get 90% truth and 90% truth is still false when it comes to the gospel

Jennie Allen- I'd love to just talk about what you see today. Let's start here. Just apply it to our lives. How do you see this happening today?

Joel- I think some of the most seductive and devastating ways that spiritual warfare is actually happening is through earthly realities. So when I talk about systems and structures, I want to talk about things like alcoholism, things like fentanyl and opioid abuse, and pornography. These are things that desecrate the image of God that humanity has as a gift. These are things that lead us into unholiness. They promise us pleasure, they lead us into a pit. It is devastating, and we have to be aware that they're not being motivated neutrally. There are dark forces that are at play, that are presenting these things to us in order to derail us from the truth of the Gospel, to derail us from the joy of authentic relationships, the beauty of covenant marriage. I mean, there are actual dark powers that are present in this.

Here's another one, social media. Think about the neurological chemical hits that are taking place when you open up your phone and you see the amount of likes you got or you didn't get, the amount of shares that you have or you don't, the amount of views that you have or you don't have.

These are all things to make you think in the context of pride that you should be more than you are or devastate you because it tempts you to believe that you're less than you actually are.

Both polar extremes, thinking that you are more than you are and subjugating yourself and thinking less than God intended for you to be are both equal parts horrific because it demeans the image of God that you actually bear.

Jennie Allen- I do feel discouraged sometimes when I'm working on a project and I'm in my research stage because it does feel a little like we got handed a tough time to live, as if every generation hasn't had its troubles. I mean, certainly they've been at war and many things that I don't envy. But as far as the subtlety and the way the enemy is luring people away and into depression and loneliness and isolation, I do feel like it's not as clear as it would be if we were at war or something more concrete that was devastating. I think about the person at home listening and thinking, "Well, I don't really do drugs. How does this impact us? Why does it matter?" Because we can't get out of the culture we're in, right? Probably most of us are not going to get off social media or whatever other ways the enemy is trying to seduce us. What are the implications of the small and subtle ways the enemy is attacking us?

Joel- Well, I think you mentioned one of them is loneliness. You mentioned anxiety, you've mentioned depression. This constant awareness that there is something else out there, and then this belief that that thing out there could actually be better than what you currently have. You've got this longing, like, "If only I had…," right? And it's like that phrase, “If only I had…”, is an inclination that is a temptation to believe that what you currently have is not good enough. And if what you currently have was given to you by God and what you currently have is not good enough, then just maybe God himself is not good enough. And so if what you have is not good enough and God is not good enough, and now you're being presented with things that you are longing for, and if God isn't going to be the one who's going to give that thing to you, then what are you going to do? Take it of your own means. Figure out how you can grasp it. Figure out how you can control it.

And so it is a subtle temptation and it is both extravagant and big in terms of addictions, alcoholism, and pornography, and it is incredibly subtle in terms of what is the conversation that is happening in the chamber of your human heart when you come across something that you wish you had that you don't.

Jennie Allen- So you believe that the enemy is feeding thoughts to us?

Joel- This is a really great question. I think there's a difference. There's a difference between possession and oppression. I'm going to hold, and different people have different opinions on this, but I'm going to hold that if you have the indwelt Holy Spirit inside of you – You and I both have a mutual friend in Luke, and I love Luke's passion for sanctification and holiness and temple of God conversation. And so in Ephesians 2, it says that we are the temple of God. Ephesians 1 says that the Spirit of God dwells inside of us. So if this is true, I do not believe that believers can be possessed by demons or possessed by these supernatural beings. They can absolutely be oppressed. They can absolutely be fed thoughts, ideas, things on the outside that weigh us down as active warfare. This is Ephesians 6. This is the language of Ephesians 6 that's at play.

Generally, the enemy works in three ways: Temptation, deception, and accusation.

The enemy is tempting us to believe things that are not true. The enemy is deceiving us by presenting to us counterfeit helpers. The enemy is accusing us, and the accusation is framed in shame. “You're not good enough. God doesn't actually love you. Look how filthy you are. Look at what you thought. Look at how you look.” And all these things are offenses against you.

But for believers, I do think we come to this conversation a little bit differently because we have the indwelling Holy Spirit. So we shouldn't come to this conversation from a posture of fear or frailty. We should come to it from a place of confidence.

Authority because we have the authority of Christ in us.

Jennie Allen- That was a breakthrough for me that I wrote about in Get Out Of Your Head. I was doubting God and confused about whether he was real, and this was in the middle of the night. For so long I was taking it. Anybody who hears that – that that went on in the middle of the night for that long – would say that was spiritual oppression, that, “You were being attacked,” because I'm someone who really, genuinely believes in God deeply, obviously. I mean, I'm not a good faker or an actor. So yes, I deeply believe in God. But I think, that attack, I didn't take the authority that I had. I didn't stand up against that for so long. And when I did, there was a complete shift. It wasn't a little bit of a shift, it was a complete shift. So talk a little bit about that authority because we need to understand that and believe in that.

Joel- Think about 2 Corinthians 5. Paul talks about the ministry of reconciliation, and he calls you and I ambassadors of Christ, ambassadors of Christ. That phrase, ambassador, is a technical term and it's a term of a person who carries the weight of the power, the presence, and the authority of the king that the person represents.

So we're ambassadors of Christ.

What Paul says is that Christ is making his appeal to humanity in and through us, which means that, this is such a profound thought for me that it just fills me with encouragement, in every place that you and I walk, we carry the power, the presence, and the authority of Christ himself into those locations. In your home, in your school, in the car line waiting to pick up your kids, you have the indwelling presence of Christ in you.

And guess what? That minivan that you're driving becomes sacred space because you are a sacred person that is anointed and holy and set apart for God. And so, if you carry the power and the authority and the presence of the king himself, in the same way in Luke 4 when the demon comes against Jesus and goes – there's actually a Greek participle that's missing in most English translations, but it's basically an emotive participle. And it's basically like shock. It’s like, “It's Jesus the Messiah!”

That same response is going to be present for demonic forces when they come across the Spirit of God that dwells inside of you because you carry the power, the presence, and the authority of Jesus himself.

Jennie Allen- I just want clarity. What we are to do, Joel. How do we fight back but not obsess?

Joel- Yeah. The golden kind of chapter of this is Ephesians 6, and it's the whole armor of God. And I'll just read it here really quick. It says in Ephesians 6:10, says "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might." The way that Paul starts Ephesians 6 is vitally important. "Be strong," which is, God is the active agent and we're to be strengthened. We're the passive recipient. So the way that it starts is there's a strength outside of us that comes to us. It is not a strength of our own making, but it doesn't diminish our responsibility because look at verse 11. "Put on the whole armor of God." So with the strength that we've received by the Spirit of God, we're supposed to put on the whole armor of God so that we might be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

"We don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against rulers and authorities, against cosmic powers of the present darkness, against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." And then he goes, "Therefore, take up the whole armor of God." And then I think it's important that we recognize, like, look at what this armor is. Fasten the belt of truth, put on the breastplate of righteousness. Have shoes that are the readiness of the gospel of peace. Put up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish the darts of the evil one. Take on the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. Pray at all times in the Spirit.

Now, Jennie, when I was reading this – I find this super fascinating – I actually don't think that this is arbitrary armor. Paul's actually quoting Isaiah 59, and in Isaiah 59, all the way back here, Isaiah says that God's looking out and he wonders why there's no one to intercede on behalf of humanity. And in verse 17, it says that God puts on righteousness as his breastplate and a helmet of salvation on his head. He puts on garments of vengeance for clothing, and he wraps himself in zeal like a cloak.

I mean, this is intimacy. This isn't just some random arbitrary armor that you put on. You're actually putting on God's armor himself. And the only reason you're able to put the armor on is because he's given you his Spirit to give you the power and the strength and the ability to put it on.

So, this is the livable part of this. Look at the specificity of the armor. So, the belt of truth is the Scriptures. The Scriptures lead us to truth. Who is the embodiment of truth? Jesus himself.

And so I think the first place that it goes to is the truth of Scripture. Because remember, the enemy is trying to deceive you into believing that Scripture isn't true, that Jesus isn't who he said he is, that God isn't for your good. So if you don't have the truth of the Scriptures as the foundation of your understanding, everything else is going to go sideways quick. But then everything else is kind of an outpouring. Your feet are ready with the gospel of peace. But the problem is we cannot separate spiritual and earthly. These two worlds are invading each other.

They're always correlating, they're always connecting. And so the peace that God gives us supernaturally is always intended to be lived out in experience in a physical, earthly reality.

And that is the opportunity that we have as faithful people who love Jesus to spread that peace, to show that peace. Some of the ways that we do it is forgiveness. Some of the ways that we do it is prayer. Some of the ways that we do it is actually the establishment of boundaries.

Jennie Allen- Sometimes I think for many of us that are parents, we see the enemy coming for our kids. We feel like they are being beat up and they are under oppression, possibly even possession. What would you say as far as our role as parents when we're watching that happen with our kids and their faith isn't what ours is?

Joel- This is one of the most important conversations that my wife and I are having right now, and just an awareness of the things that they're listening to, the things that they're watching, the things that they're being told and taught to believe is appropriate and good. When you get into it and you're like, "There's not anything good about this. This is actually incredibly deceitful."

And so, one, I think what I've found with my older kids, the 12, 10 and 8, it's open and honest conversations. So for instance, the Doja Cat song, the other day, the boys were running around singing it. And so I was like, "Whoa, hey, let's talk about this. What do these words mean? What do you think they mean? Okay, great. Now what does the Bible actually say about the devil? How should we think?" And so again, I'm trying to help our kids, my kids particularly, think theologically about these things without telling them what to think, but framing how they think. And I want to just point them back to Scripture.

And the other thing too, pray for your children. I literally anoint my kids with oil. I've got oil. At night when you can feel when things are dark and you're like, "Oh my gosh, they're working through some stuff," and they don't even know it. I'll just feel like, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and God will tell me, "Hey, just go pray for them and anoint them with oil." I've got a little anointing oil. And I go and I pray for them, and I anoint them with oil.

Jennie Allen- Hey guys, just real quick. I've used olive oil. I'm just saying. Some of you are like, "I don't have any anointing oil." I just don't want to make this feel like it's weird. I mean, it is weird. It is. But I am a believer in all of it. I mean, it's all biblical, right? And yes. Before we go, Joel, tell everybody a little bit about the book that you are working on that comes out in the spring.

Joel- I wrote a book, it's called The Hidden Peace, and it's about finding true security, strength and courage through humility. Humility is a protection, a preservation, and a prevention for us. So what does humility do? Humility actually protects us from thinking too low of ourselves. It retains the image of God that we inherently have. It's a prevention in that it prevents us from thinking too high of ourselves; where pride seductively leads us to go up to a cliff, see the beauty of the mountain, and then pride pushes us off the cliff. That's what it does. It promises the beauty of the height and then gives us the devastation of the fall.

And then it's a preservation. Humility is what keeps us rooted in the soil of Christ, that we can live the life that he wants us to live. And so for a lot of people, often you think about our weaknesses and our limitations, and these things are so horrible. “If only I could just be strong, if only I could have strength, if only I could have peace and stability, then I can actually live a peaceful life.” And what I've actually found is that-

Weakness ends up being the perfect place for God to plant the power of his strength. And the only way that we can come to that realization is when we accept the call of Jesus who tells us to come follow him, all those who are humble and lowly of heart.