A Candid Conversation With Jackie Hill Perry
Jackie just came out with a 60-day devotional called Upon Waking, and the cover's beautiful. The divos are just the perfect length. It's like that short bite-size moment in the morning, but they are so deep. Prepare yourself to wake up because every single day, she brings something new and fresh. Jennie and Jackie joined for a candid conversation, below is our edited talk.
Jennie- I'm excited about your devotional. First of all, can we just talk about the cute little bird on the cover and the story of your cover because it is the greatest cover.
Jackie- It's beautiful. Yeah, we went through a couple iterations and cover art is a big deal for me. I think you can judge aa book by a cover sometimes. And so when they came back with that one, it evoked something in me viscerally, which is the reaction that I want people to feel.
It's like this bird who wakes up and is singing, to the creator, I would suppose, and just that being a metaphor for us, that we should be waking up and singing to him or talking to him or, at the very least, saying hello.
Jennie- Is that easy for you?
Jackie- Easier now. It didn't use to be, and I think I've tried to make it a practice because I've seen the difference in my ability to serve others when I've met with God, and I no longer have this religious pressure that God will hate me, if I don't talk to him. You know what I'm saying? So it's like if I have room or space for 10 minutes or an hour, he still loves me.
I think having a concept of being secure in Jesus, even apart from the intensity of my spiritual disciplines, has freed me to meet him without all the extra baggage.
Jennie- Let's go back to old Jackie, just became a Christian, because I know she was a little legalistic. I've seen some of your posts. They're so great.
Jackie- Well fresh Jackie, it was when Jackie got around the older, legalistic saints.
Jennie- Okay, so you get indoctrinated there and then something changes, and even, it just came out of you just now, you experience God's grace. You experience his favor even when you aren't deserving of it. What shifted and what does that feel like now? Do you ever miss legalistic Jackie? There are some pros to being legalistic. It keeps us disciplined.
Jackie- But it's a joyless discipline, and so that's not fun. It's feeling like, I'm going to go to hell if I don't do this. I think what changed is, I was a part of a church community that was hyper legalistic. I don't know if you can be hyper legalistic, but they were, to the point, nobody hugged in the church. We all fist bumped because you wanted to guard your heart. If you were on the phone with people, you made sure that you would at least mentioned Jesus at some point in the conversation because if you didn't, it was considered having an idle conversation. So you met with God every single day.
God forbid you get into a car and you don't give somebody the gospel. It was just a very intense, and I thought that was Christianity, until we came to find out that our leadership were all being sexually immoral, using scriptures to manipulate women into sexual practices and all the things. So that crushed me because it was like we're all trying to obey God with all of these precepts and laws that y'all gave us and y'all are living lawless. That's crazy. So I had to, I won't say deconstruct, but I had to just get back to the basics of
What is grace? Why was the Holy Spirit sent? What is justification? What does that all mean? God, do you love me even when I do nothing?
And I think going through that process just, I don't know, freed me a bit.
Jennie- So going through that process is, for a lot of people, they walk away from God, they walk away from the church. That probably was pretty dramatic.
Jackie- No, it was traumatic for sure. Yeah. God was kind. I think he kept me, and so one of the ways he kept me is that I just was cool on church for a minute, and I made it up in my mind that if I have my Bible, if I got the Holy Ghost and I got a couple friends that hang out with me every now and again and talk about Jesus at Applebee's, I'll be straight. I don't need to be a member of a local church to love the Lord.
I had moved home, back home to St. Louis, and I was at Chipotle. I was probably 20. I went back home and I saw this guy and this other guy, this Black guy and this white guy opening the Bible together, and I was like, "Huh. I should ask them what they're doing." And that ain't even my personality. So that's how you know it's the Holy Ghost. I went over and I was like, "Hey, I see y'all reading the Bible together. Do y'all go to a church or something?" They were like, yeah, we're actually starting a church plant. Long story short, I went to the church plant, in that time, the pastor, the first time we met, he took me to acts where Jesus is talking to Paul and he says, "Why are you persecuting me?" And he's like, "I'm not even persecuting you," and Jesus is like, "If you're persecuting the church, you're persecuting me."
And the spirit used that to convict me, but challenge me to see the church in the way that Jesus sees the church, which is that he's so identified with his bride that if I'm going to love Jesus, I need to love his body.
So I think being planted back in a healthy body, then helped me to process the true gospel.
Jennie- Wow. I mean that right there, people are going to have to sit with that, rewind that because the conviction of it is bigger than our desire, bigger than our hurt, bigger than the reality that this is hard. Let's talk about your devotional. Was it fun to create this? What'd you think about when you were writing this, when you were thinking about all the people that would read it?
Jackie- Oh man. I don't even know. Yeah, it wasn't fun per se. It was hard. I didn't expect it to be as difficult as it was. To the point that we had to skim it down, because originally, it was supposed to be 90 days. I went back to the publisher and was like, "Yeah, I can't do 90."
"We got to do two months, sir." So I don't know. I guess I thought about what I would want to read. If you're going to have me getting up in the morning and supposedly meet with God, then this thing needs to have some meat. It needs to have some depth. It needs to challenge me and redirect my thinking, or even my view of myself, my view of the world, my understanding of the scriptures. If I only have 15 minutes, how can I be challenged, but also encouraged in a place that, I don't know, would serve people? So that's what I was thinking. I was thinking about what would I want? And so I wrote that way.
Jennie- You have a lot of outputs right now in your life, speaking, podcasts, writing. What are your inputs? What are you taking in? Where do you take it in? Where do you take it in?
Jackie- Yeah. There's the Lord, and so I've had seasons that were busier than this one, that left me really empty and stressed and anxious and sad and confused, and that it was because I didn't have a discipline of abiding. I was just pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, and so I just was empty. So I've made it my business now to get with God because I'm just not a good person. So there's that.
I think people, I don't have a lot of friends, but the people that I do have are good people. So checking on me, seeing how I am, us talking about stupid stuff, sending TikToks to each other. Then I think my family. My children, my husband, I think they do something for me, for my heart. They humanize me in a way. I can't explain what I mean. But I think all of that.
Jennie- They take you out of your head into your body and into your real life.
Jackie- Yeah. When your daughter just comes up and starts talking to you about nothing, absolutely nothing, that's completely exciting to her. You know what I'm saying?
And me thinking about these moments won't last forever, so let me be here. Let me be embodied with you. I don't have to be nothing to you except your mama. I think there's something about that.
Jennie- Does your brain work all the time?
Jackie- Yes. Absolutely.
Jennie- What were you just thinking about before I talked?
Jackie- Me and Preston were having a conversation about everybody wanting to start a podcast. It's a phenomenon and so that's what I was feeling. It's a thing. And that's okay, everybody does have something to say.
I think the question is, why do we want to say it?
Jennie- Why do you want to say it?
Jackie- Because I have a lot to say and I think that if the Lord has given us technology, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Spotify, Apple, why not leverage all the doors that he's open to talk about him? But I'm also very flexible and always open to the possibility of him saying, "No. Stop it. Be quiet." Because that would be easier anyway.
Jennie- What's your favorite thing to do that you do?
Jackie- Preach. I like preaching.
Jennie- Do you feel like podcasting is like it? Do you feel like podcasting is preaching or you feel like it's totally different?
Jackie- No, because with podcasting, I'm having a conversation with my husband, and so it's a conversation that we would otherwise have, but not record. It's been nothing but obedience that I've continued podcasting. I don't necessarily want to do it. I would prefer to not. But it's over here serving the kingdom. People are being blessed and they see in Jesus and loving him, so it's been nothing but me waiting for God to say, "You give me the green light, and I will stop podcasting today." My life would be easier, so pray for me Jennie.
Jennie- Yeah. It's unbelievable. All right, so do you feel like you're doing the thing, do you feel like you're at peace in your soul right now?
Jackie- I do. Yeah. I think if anything, I think if I ever feel insecure, it's if I'm giving my children enough. Am I discipling them enough? Am I teaching them enough? Should they be in cheerleading? Should they be in piano? Are there activities that I'm... Am I too distracted by ministry that I'm not making them full and whole human beings? I think that's the part of my life that I'm always wondering, is that good enough? My mothering.
Jennie- All right, so you're in your car. You're going to film something, you're going to record yourself talking about something. Is it just what's on your mind in that moment? Take us behind your brain. I watched one about spiritual authority, or can't remember now what it was, just recently, from TikTok. And you're just sitting there thinking about spiritual authority. I mean, part of me ask you this out of mad respect, and I am not that totally different. These things do, I don't always post record, but that's just going on in your brain on a Tuesday?
Jackie- Yeah. I'm always processing. Yeah, I'm always processing. I don't share half of what I process because I don't necessarily think that that's great leadership to vent or to communicate unprocessed thoughts out loud to a people that might land in ways that are unhelpful.
So I'm also thinking about would it be helpful to share this? If not, then process it with a human being that you actually know, but I'm going to process it either way.
Jennie- You tackle crazy stuff that.
Jackie- You think so?
Jennie- I do a little. I mean, I think sometimes it's gotten you in a little trouble, but largely... It's like you can talk about big issues. You just dropped a podcast on homosexuality and it doesn't feel like you're getting blown up about it. Is it just because now this is what you've been through and this is what you talked about? Did you ever get a ton of pushback, persecution for this?
Jackie- Yeah, in the secular space, for sure. Yeah, I think that the gay, same sex attraction, conversation, it feels a bit typical now. So I don't think people are necessarily as offended and it's expected from me. I have a whole book called Gay Girl, Good God, and so I just always think that it's less... The content is a thing. The content makes people mad, but I also think that it's the approach. It's the authenticity.
I think people see me touch stuff that's awkward all the time, but I think people know I care by now. I think they know I care. I'm really not doing it for any other reason, man.
The truth is what sets people free.
Jennie- Yeah, you kill it. I mean, I'm just grateful. It is tricky and I think your story and your life is helpful to the conversation as well. Let's talk about your marriage.
Jackie- Marriage is good. It's crazy because in March 1st, we'll be married 10 years.
And it feels like 10 years and it doesn't feel like 10 years. Yet we still feel so curious about each other.
It's like, I know you and you know me. There's things that we just know, but I'm still getting to know you. I'm still figuring you out and you're still figuring me out, and I think some of it is, there is this newness to each season.
It's like, I know you and you know me. There's things that we just know, but I'm still getting to know you. I'm still figuring you out and you're still figuring me out, and I think some of it is, there is this newness to each season. So getting to know Preston when we were both, I was 24, he was 27, when we got married. That was different with no kids, no public ministry, no businesses. We're just in a house with no cable, eating ramen noodles all the time. That's a different intimacy that's being formed. Versus having four children, having parents that are aging, dealing with that, having the ministries, having businesses, having a dog, having the life, intimacy, it just looks different because of the season we're in. I expect it's going to continue to look different, and so I'm just intrigued by marriage.
It's just an interesting thing. That's basically what I'm trying to say. It's interesting. And we're in a society where marriages around us are consistently failing, so also managing that. Having friends who got married with you who are now divorced. Or having friends where there's adultery, pornography addiction. All of that is intense, and so also being able to be present with the people who are around you, where marriage is not a thing anymore.
Jennie- Do y'all have people in your life, people discipling you? Talk about those people.
Jackie- Melody Fabian is one of my mentors and she's always been my mentor, but now it's become more of a broader situation where now CD, her husband, they've become more present for us as a marriage, so not just Jackie and Melody, but now Jackie, Melody, CD, Preston. My pastor introduced her to me when I was 22 years old. I don't know what Preston and CD do. I know they talk sometimes, but me and Melody, we talk every other week. So I had a conversation with her yesterday. We talked for an hour and a half, and then this December, me and Preston are having a prayer retreat with each other. This is the first time. We were like-
"Let's invite married couples that we trust to speak into the vision casting that we have for next year."
We have our pastor, our old pastor from Chicago and his wife and Melody and CD. So just trying to also create space for continuous discipleship, because I even think that if you have a marriage ministry with your husband, sometimes people can get in the habit of planning in isolation, which is cool. You need vision. You can get vision from God in isolation, but what if you have people who are older than you, and have done ministry longer than you, and have done life, and have done marriage longer than you to come and speak into that, but that's something I learned through discipleship. I'm always thinking,
