How to Fight Apathy
With David Platt
His new book ‘Don't Hold Back: Leaving Behind the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully’ talks about God’s heart for all of us.
Here's Jennie and David’s edited conversation:
You did such a great job of pulling us back to the heart of Jesus with your recent book. The subtitle of the book is ‘Leaving Behind the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully.
What is the American gospel?
David: The conclusion I've come to over the last couple of years is that ‘Radical’ wasn't radical enough. It wasn't just the American dream consuming our lives. We're tempted to buy into an American gospel. We are tempted to exchange a biblical gospel that exalts Jesus above everything in the world for an American gospel that prostitutes Jesus for the sake of comfort, power, politics, and prosperity.
American gospel puts political preferences, convictions, or ideological values of comfort and prosperity on the same level as the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are disillusioned by things we see and divided in ways we’ve never been before. The next generation is increasingly disengaging from the church and talking about deconstructing faith. And I wanted to write a book that reminds people that there is so much more to Jesus and the church than we've seen or experienced over the last few years.
In the book, you say that adults must show the next generation what a commitment to the Great Commission looks like in action. What are we substituting for what God has actually called us to do?
David: We are substituting our calling for our ideas, ideals, positions, and preferences. I'm hearing people say you can't be Christian and vote for this or that political party. But what unites us is the Bible, the atonement of Jesus, and the Trinitarian nature of God. How you vote in a presidential election cannot be put on the same level. The core of what it means to be a Christian is not how you vote in a presidential election. There are much deeper and more beautiful things than that.
But what unites us is the Bible, the atonement of Jesus, and the Trinitarian nature of God. How you vote in a presidential election cannot be put on the same level. The core of what it means to be a Christian is not how you vote in a presidential election. There are much deeper and more beautiful things than that.
In one chapter, I write about ethnicity and race. Because of the history of our country, we have divided into different churches based on the color of our skin. Surely, it's time to turn the tide on centuries of racial division in the church. I recently spent hours with a group of African American and white pastors discussing how we can work together. We certainly don't want to live like we're preserving time capsules from 200 or even 50 years ago.
Pastoring in Washington, DC puts you in the heart of political chaos. Even making some of these calls has been costly for you. Can you talk about that?
David: By God's grace, I have had people like you, who have encouraged me on hard days where I’ve been slandered, discouraged, or even disillusioned. It's been so helpful to have people who encourage me to keep going in those moments.
You step into conversations about how we can work to heal the racial divide, and there are landmines everywhere. People start lobbing accusations and labels. There's a whole chapter on doing justice and what that looks like in our lives. And that's costly.
Part of the reason we don't do justice the way the Bible calls us to is because it's costly. It takes us out of our comfort zones. You can't reach nations with the gospel without cost, but it’s worth it. The people in our lives, as well as God's Word and Spirit continually remind us that it's worth it.
What would you say to someone who says racial reconciliation and social justice are not the gospel?
David: I used to think that way. I used to think abortion was a political issue. But then I realized that this is a biblical issue far before it's a political issue. So, I started addressing that issue biblically. Well, why limit that advocacy to just the unborn? Why not extend that action to the poor, refugees, the fatherless, widows, and oppressed individuals? The gospel leads to that kind of action, and that's where it's interesting.
I’m usually told to “just preach the gospel” when I start addressing race, poverty, refugees, or oppression. And yet, I hardly hear that criticism when I speak about abortion. Where did we get the idea that we'd be selective about the issues to which we apply the gospel?
The gospel is the good news of what God has done for us in Jesus. But as Jesus transforms our hearts and lives, we become advocates for justice because faith without works is dead. Faith in Jesus inevitably leads to doing justice and not being selective in the kind of justice we do.
Do politics matter? Where do politics find a place in your mind?
David: They definitely matter. The extent to which we have the opportunity to affect laws and policies in the United States matters a lot. As the broader church, we need to make sure that we keep those convictions in their proper place.
In the book, I describe first-bucket issues that make us followers of Jesus – the authority of God's Word and the core truth of the gospel. Then there are second-bucket issues – what brings us together in different churches and where we might have differences between churches. And then there are third-bucket issues, where even followers of Jesus in the same church might disagree on various subjects.
Wherever the Bible is not clear and direct, I put those kinds of issues and conversations in the third bucket. It's good for us to be in relationship with others, where we have disagreements about third-bucket issues and keep them in their proper place. We can’t dismiss the “authenticity” of other people’s Christianity based on the presidential candidate they voted for. That’s a third-bucket issue.
We either put things in the wrong bucket or we forget how to love and care for people across buckets. However, we would experience a deeper unity by diving into those issues because we’d realize that we’re united around Jesus. Despite our disagreement on some of the third-bucket issues, we’re still the body of Christ.
You write: “Let's share God's word, not as a weapon to wound enemies and cultural battles but as a bomb to heal and restore friends, neighbors, and strangers with the compassion of Jesus.” That is such a passion of mine, and it feels like we've gotten far away from that.
David: Recent years have uncovered our muscles for having empathetic, humane, compassionate, and kind conversations with one another. Those muscles are just not strong because our culture is not developing them.
Our culture is so polarized, and that polarization has seeped into the church.
But we have, in the Gospel and the Spirit of God inside of us, the ability to listen well and learn from each other. We can humbly come together to be kind, compassionate, and honorable toward each other.
Jesus makes it clear that you should love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. But that doesn’t mean seeing people with a different perspective from you as enemies. If they're in the church, they’re your brothers or sisters in Christ. If they're not in the church, you see them as friends that we long to see come to know the love of Jesus.
Adopting a new perspective will affect the way we talk about social issues. We're not about winning culture wars. We are about leading people to the love of Jesus, and that changes our tone and the way we interact. We must continually ask ourselves, do people who disagree with us walk away with a clearer picture of how much we love them?
Where did you fall in love with the global church, specifically the unreached?
David: The big turning point for me was when somebody walked me through God's Word from cover to cover. He showed me that God is zealous for His grace and glory to be known in all nations. I'd grown up in the church, but that felt like the first time I had seen that. That was the stick of dynamite in my heart, and all I did was walk through the Word.
I learned for the first time about unreached people, specifically the Amdo Tibetan people. That was the first time I'd ever heard about and prayed for unreached people. These are people with little to no access to the Gospel. And it's not just an isolated people group. There are thousands of them and billions of people who don't have access to the Gospel.
I remember wondering why I had not heard about this all my life. I wondered why we’re not always talking about this. Three billion people have little to no access to the Gospel or are on a road that leads to eternal hell. This feels like we should be talking about it all the time. So, that was the turning point for me.
In Romans 14 and 15, Paul talks about unity in Jesus and getting the gospel to the unreached. So, the unity of the church for the spread of the gospel to the unreached is in scripture. The two subjects are not isolated; one leads to the other.
I believe that change happens through prayer, but sometimes I forget how powerful prayer is. Talk about why prayer is so important to you.
David: That chapter on prayer at the end of the book is like the climax toward which everything builds. This is a conviction in my heart.
Until a trip I took to South Korea a few years ago, I had never seen prayer on a large scale. In 1900, less than 1% of the population on the Korean peninsula were Christian. 100 years later, they have over 10 million followers of Jesus in South Korea alone. And there are more followers of Jesus in underground churches in North Korea.
Koreans are sending missionaries worldwide, second only to the US in sending capacity. But they are so much smaller than us. That happened because they got serious about praying. Prayer and fasting became the mark of the church in South Korea. And I was convicted because I had never been a part of an all-night prayer gathering until that trip.
I believed in prayer, but I hadn't prayed like that. Coming back, I realized that we needed to have all-night or late-night prayer gatherings more often in our church.
My favorite times are when we are gathered in the evening with no plan beyond the first song, and the Spirit leads us according to His Word.
I want to know God more than I've known Him in my 44 years on this earth. I know there's so much more, and I want to see and know more. I want to experience more of Him. I want to see more people coming to Christ. I want to see people released from addiction. I want to see people honestly confessing sins and need for God's help.
Why do we diminish our power? Why do we not realize that God has given us power and dominion over darkness, and we give weight to it? What does it look like to fight darkness? How do we not just fall into numb apathetic lives?
David: That's such a good question. With some of the things Helen and I have been wrestling with, I am tempted to not pray with faith because it can feel like things won’t change. That’s where you need to find your people.
We need to be in relationships with one another, spurring each other on.
We need people who speak truth in our lives.
We need people who replace the lies in our heads because left to ourselves, we can be paralyzed pretty quickly.
So, we need to be in community.
We need to be before God together.
And that's what we've experienced with our evening prayer gatherings.
Part of it is remembering steadfast love. And I pray that everyone would know the breadth of God's love for them in Jesus and be filled with all this fullness as they trust in Him, seek him, walk with Him, and point others to Him. We've got such beautiful opportunities every day, not only to enjoy this love but to bring others into it.
Amid some discouragement, I thought about the people who are walking through similar things in life with no hope in Jesus. I realize that you may have things going on in your life, and it all feels so heavy. But imagine walking through those things without the hope and strength of Jesus.
Imagine not knowing that it's going to be okay in the end. Imagine not knowing that one day your tears will be wiped away by God Himself, and there'll be no more sorrow. Imagine walking through this, and 10 billion years from now, you walk through it in deeper ways of eternal suffering. I pray that God helps us lift our eyes in those ways. It's hard in this world but take heart; we know the one who's overcome the world. Let's point the world to Him.
What are some practical ways you've seen people engage with and care about the world?
David: One example is Illuminations, a mission that translates the word of God and spreads it to previously unreached or underreached places. The opportunities we have are greater than ever to get the gospel to the world through technology.
I would encourage simple things like -
Praying intentionally for it in your life, marriage, and family.
Raise your kids to love and want to spread the gospel among nations.
Encourage your kids to think through how they can give.
Radical works through urgentneeds.org to try getting the gospel to unreached people. There are also many opportunities through your local church.
Once you and your family start putting resources financially behind the spread of the gospel in the world, your heart will follow. And if you've not given money, then your heart won’t go there. I would encourage people to reach out to the nations around them.
God, by His grace and sovereignty, has brought the nations to our front doors. So, look for opportunities to reach people from different ethnicities around you, specifically those from places that are less reached by the gospel.
Statistically, evangelical Christians are some of the most resistant to people coming from unreached nations into the United States. But when God brings people who are far from the gospel to our front door, we should be excited about the opportunity to share the gospel around us.
