Stop Hiding Your Gifts with Jo Saxton
Our guest on the podcast today is my good friend, Jo Saxton. She is an author, speaker, podcaster, and leadership coach. She also just came out with a book called Ready To Rise that you can find on Amazon or anywhere books are sold! The message of the book is a deep passion of mine and of Jo’s to see women rise up to the callings that God has put on their lives, to not hold back. She has pushed me in this so much. I feel like she is my unpaid counselor friend!
Why don’t we just start out and tell people a little about your passion. Where did this passion for leadership come from and why is it so deep in your bones?
I think there were two things. Two formative things come to mind immediately. One is I would say that I was the last one to understand I was a leader. My teachers knew it at school. The sports coaches understood it. My enemies knew it. I would gather people in a particular direction, but I didn't see it. I did not know. I did not get it. Even when I was taking responsibility for things, I enjoyed being part of taking responsibility, but I didn't know that that meant I was doing something with it. It was only because of the investment of others, the encouragement of others, the discipling and the mentoring of others, that I learned what it meant to deal with the junk in your life and then get out of the way. Diving into God’s word and having a relationship with him - I wouldn’t be doing it if it wasn’t for all of those things. It’s as simple as that. I didn't see it and I didn't see myself in other people. I didn't see it represented in front of me. And so when you don't see it, it's not always clear to know. The other part was, from the very beginning, God called his people to do something. There was that sense of him giving these gifts and giving these abilities and us being made in his image to represent him in the world. So for me I'm always asking, what does it look like to represent him? What does it look like to be his ambassador? What does it look like to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world around us?
I want to read a quote from the book. It says, “there was no moment for me when I suddenly felt confident about having gifts worth using or influence that could make a positive impact on the world around me.” That shocks me, Jo. Having watched your confidence, and reading that there was that insecurity in you at some point. That just blows my mind. So talk just a little bit about that and how you're seeing that in other women and how that frustrates you.
You don't live beyond what you believe about yourself and what you think about yourself. I grew up in London in a very tense time. It was a very tense time racially and for immigrant communities. I'm from an immigrant family and not everybody by any stretch, but the tabloids, it was tense. It was difficult and it was painful. We were other and we were not seen as people of value. Even when you don't believe that to be true, you're still fighting to prove something. Or at least we were. I think between that and just insecurities I grew up with about my worth and value left me wondering. The question always in my head was, “who do you think you are?” You have a dream and passion? Who are you and what makes you think that you have something to say or something to offer or something to give that could help someone else? Aren't you arrogant for having those? Why are you making this all about you? Those were some of the ideas and the thoughts that were going through my mind and that I had to fight back or push away or process in some way. What I found with women often is that the first battle is in the mind. That battle going on in your head can determine who you're going to love, what you're going to do, what you're saying no to. It can do it so quickly.
It is a war. What’s encouraging, is I’ve watched in the time I’ve known you, I’ve watched women embrace this in new ways. I really do believe the time is right for this. There are so many needs and women have a desire to meet them. I want to talk about a word that you use a lot. I want to talk about influence and I want you to define it for everybody and talk about what you mean when you say it.
When I'm thinking of influence, it's the capacity you have to impact somebody else's life. You can impact the way they think, the conditions they live in, the world they inhabit, the way they perceive themselves. Influence is you shaping somebody else and everybody is shaping someone else. Everyone. You may be shaping them for a moment in impacting their day. You may impact their decade. The way we treat people, the way we speak to people, love people, reject people, empower people, shapes their entire destinies or at least has the potential to. So we are incredibly influential. We often don’t remember what influential in our lives said, as much as who they were. People remember who you were to them, the kind of neighbor you are, the kind of colleague you are, the kind of Bible study leader you are, the kind of client you are, the kind of customer you are in a grocery store. We are influencing each other 24/7.
I want to talk about the issue of fear because this is certainly something you've written a lot about. You are very passionate about this. What do you think it is with women and fear? Is it just our lot? Is this our curse? What role do you think that plays in this?
I think it's one of our major battles because we are so afraid of getting it wrong, being wrong, something being wrong with us, being too much, not being enough. The list is endless. It can stop us from even beginning to move forward and show up. I think there's a lot of passion about showing up and excitement about showing up. But I’ve seen many gifted, talented, Godly women, whether it’s in their workplace, community, church, and they hide their gifts and call it humility.
That was me. That's my whole story. I absolutely thought I was being humble and playing it good for everyone if I just sat on the back row with my gifts. When I read that you wrote that, I was like, yes! That is my story exactly. I blamed it on humility and thought I was being so Godly and letting other people do it. I was absolutely suppressing obedience and what God had called me to do all that time.
I think it leaves a lot of women conflicted. We want to do the right thing by the world around us and by the Lord, but we hide. Almost as if we’re dangerous for living into our calling and being obedient. That's the kind of danger you want!
You wrote in the book too, “we need people who will voice new dreams. New culture-shaping, community healing, justice and mercy living, potential-realizing, life-giving, God-inspired dreams. People who would be willing to play their parts and lead the way. Further still, we need to bring new ideas and see and act on the potential that a new landscape can bring. We need to create new ways of being, of living and doing. We're making our own chapter of history and the world needs your faith-fueled voice, gifts and skills. It needs you to rise into your God given influence and make a positive impact. So you need to clear the debris and the obstacles standing in the way and unapologetically live the life that you were made for. You'll need to dig deep to get there and it might be a little uncomfortable at times, but it will be worth it.” How has that been uncomfortable for you?
It’s been a number of things. It's been uncomfortable to face the pain and it's been uncomfortable to face fear. My fear was rejection. My fear was whether I'd be judged and criticized and all these things. All of them came true! I was right. My fear was I no longer had any control of my life. The fear has manifested itself differently in different decades of my life. So in my twenties my fear was if I really go for God, will I get married? It was almost like if I tone myself down and settle down, then do I get to settle down? I watched all my friends get married and I got married at 29. Although that wasn't late in national terms in England, in the church terms, it was late. My church was full of young adults and everybody was getting married at 23. So in my twenties my fear was if I go for this, what will it cost? And I love God and I wanted him in my life, but I was terrified of that. In my thirties, I was having babies and I was just trying to do the right thing. I questioned why was God giving me ideas now? This doesn't make sense. The “doesn’t make sense” part of it I couldn’t understand. There's something about settling into certain parts of your life, but also some of my first big griefs and losses in terms of family members passing happened. So you're kind of sandwiched between these generations and thinking, “I don't know what I'm doing.” I was afraid that if I began to listen to the call of God on my life, I wouldn't be as good a mother, I wouldn't be as good a wife, I wouldn't be as good a friend, and I wouldn't be as good a daughter. I think now in my forties it's different again. I'm just tired. I think comfort can woo you. All of these fears can happen at any generation, though.
But I do relate to your timing of them though. I have the exact same ones. Now it’s no longer people pleasing, but it’s comfort and not wanting to do hard things.
Yeah, like I could just go under the radar. No one would begrudge me...But in this moment we’re in right now, there are those of us who have never called ourselves leaders or people of influence, but because we are wiping down grocery stores, you’re now saving people's lives. There are people who are being stretched up in ways they didn't believe possible. They planned to be a teacher, and they did not know that they would be doing these online sessions and working out what special education looks like virtually and having to help families be empowered and get all their kids educated. All of our jobs are different! We might as well set fire to our job descriptions, because everything has changed. Your heart for your community just went through the roof now because it looks different. We’re all here with new circumstances, no road map, and we’re just looking at each other asking, “what are you doing? How are you doing this?” Because we don’t know how it works. The calling didn’t change, the call to influence and being made in the image of God, the playing your part in the great commission, none of those things changed. But alongside all those changing things, we're being impacted massively too. We’re dealing with loss, we're dealing with vulnerability, we're dealing with pain, we're dealing with uncertainty and fear.
What’s cool about this moment is we realize there's more on the line. I think there's something about this season that's kind of woken us all up to realize that we want our lives to count for something. I hope and I pray that everybody listening right now is already having conversations and praying about what it looks like to come out of this. What do we want to add back into our lives? And what do you not want to add back in? This is a great time to own your voice, own your gifts, own the authority and influence God has given you in your place. You don’t have to lead a non-profit or a leadership organization. Whatever God has called you to - do that. Step into whatever that is. Talk a little bit about this book and this message coming out while all of this has been going on. I feel like it’s absolutely divine and providential.
It’s been weird. You write something awhile back, and you never know the moment you’re going to be in when it releases. My expectation was we were just going to get everyone to get passionate. But the reality is in scripture and actually for many of our lives is that calling is often uncovered in times of pressure and tragedy and pain. You know at all the leaders called in the Bible. Ester’s calling was in the face of genocide. Moses delivered people from slavery and he asked God to send somebody else! So many callings - Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego - all were under intense pressure, intense pain. Joseph’s calling happened during a famine. I think because we are being stretched in a climate that we didn't expect and because so much is uncertain, this is a key moment. What I'm grateful for about this time and grateful about sharing this at this time is that this has given you tools for world you didn't expect. And for influence you didn’t ask for, but that God has given you. It may be that your influence is that you're going to make some phone calls that help people in the midst of desperate loneliness. It may be that you're going to donate to a food bank that is feeding families. That is the difference in a family eating or not eating that month. One of the things I talk about in the book is about unwrapping the gifts God has given you. A lot of us have left our gifts unwrapped. We think oh, it just doesn’t fit right now. Nothing fits right now! But he may want you to unwrap some things so that you can be his hands and his feet in a broken world.
I think what we've got to realize is there's a lot of people who are lonely. There's a lot of people who would be honored to be invited or included into your small group, into your book club, or whatever it is. I would encourage you to host them around Jo's book. Just bring people in and take initiative, whatever that looks like. I promise you people are going to appreciate it because there is a loneliness epidemic long before this. This pandemic is just growing it. So how do we meet those needs? Exactly what you’re saying. It's going to take all of us.
I think it's a wonderful point. We forget the power of being a friend. We forget the power of being a neighbor. We forget the power of being compassionate in a time when everybody is feeling fearful. Compassion goes a long way. Maybe each day or each week in our households, how can we be compassionate today? Who can we bless today? Who can we serve today? How can we help somebody else today? Because those things could be things that could change somebody's life. Who can I have a virtual coffee with today? I think those are things that we could even begin to do just to get moving.
I want to talk about pitfalls, because this is where I live. I live in the pitfalls. So now that somebody might be using their gifts, what are ways that we could fall in this? And this is a really poignant question that you asked me at one point that I've never forgotten, which was “how was our generation of women going to fall?” What are our idols going to be? What are we going to get distracted?
There are a couple of things that I'm paying closer attention to right now, because I think they heightened in crisis as well. One is false humility. It can seem really noble to hide. It can seem really Godly to say, “I'm just going to wait and actually not call it fear.” So I think that's something to watch for and just be aware of. Not to punish it, but just to be aware that you're walking with the Father and actually this isn't about you. It's about the glory of God and serving a broken world. The other thing that’s really important to consider when we’re talking about pitfalls is some of our vices, our vulnerabilities, our weaknesses, our wounds, and particularly how crisis exacerbates them. Crisis puts you under a lot of pressure. You might find that there are particular habits you might lean into more. Are you numbing yourself in some way because you’re overwhelmed? Do you find yourself drinking things that aren’t good to be drinking? Do you find yourself eating in ways that are a reflection of a pain in your life? These things aren’t terrible. I’m asking what’s stirring in you right now, and how does fear work its way out in your life? Do you feel the need to control? Are there particular wounds that are just overwhelming your story right now? Because we're trying to be responsible, we're trying to make sure our kids are homeschooled well, we’re trying to make sure we’re good on our budgets, we are simply trying. But we’re not actually paying attention to the broken pieces of our story and the wounds from them. I want to encourage us to tend to those things, because that’s important. You’re important. You’re his kid and you’re important. The pitfall is not having the wound. The pitfall is not having the vulnerability. The pitfall is not addressing it. Sometimes we just want to perform and say we’re doing fine.
One thing you and I have seen in each other’s lives again and again is we need each other to do this well. Some of those vices get worked out in community and running alongside other people that ask great questions, which you've done again and again in my life. Let's talk about that role of other people in our lives as we live this out.
I'm convinced that if we are going to live into influence, we do it as a village. We might not all do the same thing, but you need people. That's one of the agonizing things we're realizing in this moment is how much we need people. We need to be face to face. But if we can't be face to face in a physical sense, what does it look like to be in a virtual sense? And it may feel awkward at the beginning. How do you do vulnerability on some kind digital platform? But those are habits we need to cultivate in this moment. When we look at the life of Jesus, he washed his disciples feet and then he said, “you wash one another's feet.”
Who is washing away the wounds of your day? Who is washing away the weariness you feel right now? Who is washing away all the pressures of your stories? For some of us, we may need to check in with someone professional on that. I’m talking about when you’ve had a long day and you're tired and you feel overwhelmed and you're grieving the life that you once had. You're grieving because of the loneliness, because you didn't design your life to be alone. You're grieving the loss of your career. Who's sitting with you in that? We need people in this moment. This moment may reveal the things we don't have, but it can reveal the things we can build as well.
That's the hope I hope you all leave with is not pressure, but that there are things that you might have realized in this season that you need and that you don't have right now. Those things can be built. You can build and be intentional and come out of this different than you went in. That's why I really believe in the timeliness of this book and I really hope that you'll get it. I would just love to hear if there's one thing that you hope people walk away with from this.
The best way I’ll tell you my hope is through a story. I've told you about this woman who was in the midst of tragedy and she discovered who she was in the midst of desperate loss. It was during WWII and her name was Emily May Butterfield. She left school after an elementary education, because the teacher called her stupid. She ran away and never went back. Later, she began to look after children and was inspired by people who were looking after children during the war. She was a young single woman and kept on doing it, did it for 40 years, and kept on going even though she always felt out of her depth. She didn't know what she was doing. She didn't know how she could help anybody. She was aware of her limitations and yet she was changing lives. When she was about 70 years old, she was approached after a lifetime of looking after the kids, whether she would do it one more time for a family with a preschooler and a baby. She said yes, and she looked after them for a number of years doing what she always did. Feeling out of her depth, but fostering, sorting, looking after kids and years later, the preschooler is married and works in International Finance. And I’m the baby. Her story comes a lot to me in this moment. She was a woman who felt out of her depth and that the world would not remember her. But in the midst of a global situation, the tragedy of war, she did the next right thing. She just did something. She knew she liked kids and she knew she could help them. And that was it. That determined her legacy. I offer her story to you for every one of us who is overwhelmed right now, who is out of their depth right now, who is grieving and doesn't know where this world ends right now, who is clinging to God but feeling like you're sliding down as you do it. I offer it to you in the midst of your lost jobs and your grieving and your agony and your pain. I encourage you to offer him your hands and say, just give me something. It may not even make sense and be clear, but we don't know how we're leaving legacies in this moment.
